BBB THREE. Pastor Barry takes us through God’s Word, and what it says about divorce.
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TRANSCRIPT
INTRO
This is the BeLED Family Podcast.
PASTOR BARRY
You know, is Jesus hard on sin or is he gracious with sinners? And realize that it's not an either/or question. That it's really, a both/and.
DANIEL
You are listening to the BeLED Family Podcast. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for being a subscriber. And if you are not a subscriber, take time to hit that subscribe or follow button or whatever. We appreciate that when you follow us so that you don't miss any of the episodes. We got some great ones in the past and go back and listen to our library of episodes, or we got some great ones coming up, so you don't want to miss those out. Right? This is the third installment of Barry's Biblical banter, and you can hear the first two by listening to episodes number eight and number 20. Some great conversations for Pastor Barry. On this episode, we are going to be talking about the D-word. There is a country song that I grew up with? You know the, “going through the big D I don't want to get…”
PASTOR BARRY
Don’t mean Dell's.
DANIEL
Right. And but we're talking about divorce, starting with the gospel of Jesus Christ is found in Matthew chapter five. It's a topic that usually isn't talked about too much. But we're going to kinda dive, sticking the D words there, about that. So Pastor Barry, welcome back. Glad that you are here. Divorce is not an easy topic to talk about. It can also be divisive for those who are in the church, some treat it as an irredeemable sin. But it is a reality many of us are faced with in our lives. Pastor Barry, can you help us understand this difficult reality in the context of the gospel message?
PASTOR BARRY
Well, thank you, Daniel, for having me back. And, this is certainly a topic that is not easy to talk about, but something that affects all of us. We all certainly have experiences, probably in our own families, certainly in our churches. And, it's something that we need to, really be willing to have a conversation with because there are different opinions on this. Not everybody's going to agree with the interpretation of these passages that we're going to talk about today. But it is important to really look at what the Bible teaches us and to be willing to test, maybe, our own opinions on it, according to the Scripture. And as long as we're willing to base our discussion on Scripture, I think, you know, we can have these conversations.
DANIEL
So point us to what scripture are we going to be looking at in this episode?
PASTOR BARRY
Well, today we're going to be focused on Matthew chapter 5, particularly verses 31 through 32. In the Sermon on the Mount. And I think with this topic and many other topics too, I think the church often struggles with the idea of answering the question: was Jesus hard on sinners, or is he gracious on sinners, with sinners? And I think sometimes we think that we have to choose one or the other, that if we talk too much about God's grace and redemption, that we're minimizing sin in some way. And if we're really focusing on sin, sometimes we have a tendency to forget about the gospel. And that's what I really appreciate, too, about Luther's understanding of law and gospel. And that's going to play a real key part in our discussion here today.
DANIEL
Okay. So let's ask this question. Does the unrepentant heart also play a role in how Jesus addresses people regarding remarriage and divorce, as well?
PASTOR BARRY
Yes, definitely. And that's where I think that law and gospel paradigm is very helpful for us. And I think the Sermon on the Mount is a great place to go, to really see what Jesus is doing here in these teachings. We'll see. And it's one of my favorite passages of scripture. The Sermon on the Mount, spent a lot of time, personal time, even just reading through it. And it was kind of one of those aha! moments for me, when I was reading through the Sermon on the Mount and I came to this section, the section that it seems like Jesus is making things a lot harder for us. Like he's saying, well, you know, you've heard that it was said, you know, do not murder. But I tell you, anyone who's angry with his brother, who's guilty of murder and we're like, whoa, okay. So now I'm a murderer, you know, and you go through and every part of this, we have a tendency to say, whoa, okay, that really affects me. That really convicts me. And then yet we get to the part on divorce. And a lot of times we say, well, that doesn't affect me. That's something we should really be able to do. That's something that we should really live up to. Even though the rest of this passage, we kind of just go, oh, well, that's impossible of course we do that. And when we look at the context, we have to remember, too, this is a sermon, right? So Jesus is introducing topics, and he has a conclusion. And when we look at this passage from Matthew five, really beginning, at verse 20, Jesus introduces this whole section by saying, for I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. So he's introducing it by saying, like, you need to be better even than what the Pharisees and the teachers of the law are teaching you, to really be righteous enough for heaven. And then at the end, just in case, we missed it, when he's done with all these teachings in Matthew five, he concludes that chapter in verse 48 by saying, be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect. And so as we look at this, we need to keep that context in mind that really what Jesus is telling us is that to be righteous, we need to be perfect.
DANIEL
Right? Righteousness is something we cannot obtain. It is not our goal because it is given to us, it is provided to us by Jesus. In our last Barry’s Biblical Banter, we had talked about repentance and that is turning away from our sin. But Pastor Barry, you talked about that. Sometimes people in repentance turn away from their sin, but they actually turn right back into sin rather than going after Jesus, rather than receiving the joy that Jesus gives, repentance is turning to Jesus and the joy he brings and something that needs to happen all the time continually.
PASTOR BARRY
Right? Because even when we turn away from our sin, sometimes we turn to that sin of pride, thinking that we can do it ourselves. That now that Jesus has forgiven us, now we can go out and live that righteous life perfectly on our own. And really, that's what I think Jesus…the attitude Jesus is confronting here in the Sermon on the Mount, the idea that, we eventually, can get to the point where we can obtain righteousness on our own, not relying on the righteousness given by Jesus. And Jesus here is really pointing them back to not just the Old Testament, but also, to some of those extra teachings of the Pharisees and the Pharisees were saying, well, the Old Testament is a good start, but here's some extra rules. If you really follow these rules, then you'll be truly righteous. And Jesus is really blowing all of that up. And he's saying, you know what? Even if you followed all the rules that were written down in the Ten Commandments, if you follow the Ten Commandments as they’re written, taking them literally, it's not enough. If you follow all these extra rules of the Pharisees, it's not enough. To obtain heaven based on our righteousness, we would need to be perfect.
PASTOR BARRY
And so Jesus goes back and he talks about, you know, the commandments that maybe we think of as the easiest ones to keep. Do not murder. You shall not murder. Most of us probably haven't murdered anyone, right? You know, and we think. Yep, that's what I've kept. Yeah, that's a feather in my cap right there. That I haven't killed anyone. And Jesus says, you know what? If you're trying to get to heaven on your righteousness, it's more than that. Murder is the minimum. And Jesus is telling us here that these are the minimum. The Ten Commandments is not the end of righteousness, it's the minimum, the starting point of righteousness. The starting point is that you wouldn't kill somebody. I mean, that's the bare minimum of righteousness. In that case, and Jesus says to be fully righteous, you shouldn't even be angry, with a brother or a sister or have any hostility, toward a brother or sister at all. And of course, we know that's not going to happen, right? We're going to struggle with anger.
PASTOR BARRY
We're going to struggle. Is for relationships with people. We aren't going to have a perfect relationship with everyone. And Jesus is saying, acknowledge that. Acknowledge that you are a sinner. And he goes on to adultery. And again, many of us would say, I've kept that one. I've been faithful to my wife. I have been faithful, at least in big things. You know, when we think of, you know, what we think of initially with adultery. I've never cheated on my wife. I've kept that commandment, you know? But Jesus says, you know what? That's the minimum. That's the bare minimum of what you should do. More than even just being, you know, faithful in, you know, the world's perspective. Jesus says, I've commanded you to be faithful in your heart, your heart every minute. And not just after you are married. Jesus is saying, if you were to be fully true to your wife, you would have been faithful prior to marriage. That, you know, the lust of the heart, the lust that you've committed in your life already makes you an adulterer.
PASTOR BARRY
And so really, Jesus is getting here to the point, making the point that all of us need to admit we're murderers, we're adulterers. We can't check that box and say, yep, kept that one. And yet when we get to the divorce one, then we have a tendency to make it a box. You know, we're like, yes, we know. We acknowledge everybody's going to be angry with a brother or sister. We acknowledge that almost, I would say everybody has had an impure thought in their life, you know. But then we get to divorce and we say, nope, this is one Jesus really expects you to keep. And does he, does he really expect that all of us will be able to perfectly keep this command on divorce? Now, just because we're saying that God doesn't expect that we'll be able to do it doesn't mean that Jesus isn't saying that this is sin. That anger with our brother or sister is sin. It's serious. Jesus doesn't say, well, I know you can't do it, so don't worry about it. It's all things that need to bring us to Christ. Bring us to repentance, and to find redemption in him.
DANIEL
I can see that this is circling back to the first point of people he's talking to, having an unrepentant heart and needing to realize the gravity of what they're doing. But let's bring this back. How does this affect how we interpret Jesus' teaching on divorce and remarriage according to this passage?
PASTOR BARRY
I think it's important, yeah, that we go back to that first question of, you know, is Jesus hard on sin or is he gracious with sinners? And realize that it's not a either/or question, that it's really a both/and and in this particular instance, Jesus is really addressing those who see themselves as being righteous. And in this particular teaching on divorce, he's really addressing those who have seen their action in divorcing their wife as being righteous, that they follow the law of Moses, and therefore, if they follow the law of Moses and divorcing their wife, if they gave her the proper paperwork, then in the eyes of God, that that was a righteous thing to do. But Jesus is saying, no, you know, he points back to this being something that God just allowed because it says in another passage, because of the hardness of our heart and Jesus is affirming that, that yes, divorce is sin. He basically says any part of divorce and remarriage, really includes adultery. Because anything that falls short of God's standard, that's one man, one woman for life, falls, anything that falls short is adultery. It's sin. And he talked about that in the previous one, too. But the lust in her heart that that falls short of that picture of marriage. And in that case, Jesus says, you know, it's better for you to cut off your hand and gouge out your eye, than to live in adultery. And so he's showing the seriousness of sin, even though we sometimes overlook that one. We overlook, too, the parts where it says, if you're angry with your brother, you shouldn't present your offerings to God. I've never seen anyone turned away at the offering plate because they're angry with their brother. And so we have a tendency to read those and say, Jesus just being, just making a point.
PASTOR BARRY
You know, he's being overly dramatic, to make a point to show us the seriousness of sin. And here too, we need to pay attention to what Jesus is saying, that he's saying divorce is serious. That divorce is never a small thing in the eyes of God, that it always includes sin, whether it is our sin or the sin of the other person. There's always sin involved. And that that sin affects everyone who's involved in this. It says even the one who marries a divorced woman, is part of this sin of adultery. And we need to take that seriously. But we also need to realize that Jesus here is not just giving us rules. We don't take any of the other ones as extra rules to follow. Like I said before, we're not prohibiting people from giving, because they're angry with their brother. We're not telling people to gouge out their eyes and cut off their hands. It's not going to help anyway. Right. So don't do it. And yet again, we've tended to pull this one section out and make it a new rule, a new law, and expect that people will follow that one, even though throughout this whole section, we really see it differently.
DANIEL
Now, it seems like these are all things that we should be concerned about, including divorce and and the gravity of that. And they all go against God's commandments. Yet I clearly see that we usually don't. You know, like you said, we don't check someone's anger level at a meeting or the grudges before they are allowed to put an offering in the plate. That probably would get a little bit cumbersome and be very long service. Pastor Barry, does that mean that they are impossible to achieve? Can we assume that they are no big deal, something the church can choose to not pay attention to?
PASTOR BARRY
Yeah, and that's where we make an error the other way. Sometimes we make an error, I think, in making these laws that somehow we think we can obtain easily. The other one is to say, well, Jesus is being so over the top here that we can just throw it all out. And again, with Jesus, it's not one or the other. It's a both/and. Whenever we feel righteous in our own heart, we need to let this law convict us when we think we're doing well, we need to let this say, hey, no. You have a problem with your brother or sister. You have this relationship problem. You need to take it seriously. And that's what Jesus means by not presenting your gift at the altar. He means take it seriously. Understand that all this sin affects our relationship with God. But then too, we need to remember, God is a God of redemption and forgiveness, and we're easy to give that in certain areas. We're easy to say, well, you know, this person who maybe has committed the sin of fornication, you know, over and over again before they're married. Well, that's okay. They can be forgiven. They can be restored, they can go on to have a godly marriage. But the one who was faithful to their one spouse and that spouse was unfaithful to them or abandoned them, that all of a sudden that situation for some reason, can't be redeemed. And that person then has no chance to experience a godly marriage afterwards. And I think that's where we run into that either/or problem. We like to see it as one or the other. Jesus never minimizes sin. He always teaches that sin or that divorce is sin. And it's a sin that needs to be atoned for, a sin that needs to be repented of. But we can't minimize redemption either.
DANIEL
Those who are listening who have…are divorced. I think divorce touches all of our lives, whether we're the ones divorced or we know people who have been divorced. And, we're not trying to condemn anybody here. We were trying to present the gospel of Jesus Christ as going: no one can atone for their sin. No one can make up for whatever wrong they've done, whether that's, whatever you want to list, and that we're not here to talk about that, but we are here to talk about what does Jesus do with that? You know, if you are a person who is divorced, what encouragement, Pastor Berry, can you offer to those people who are kind of…maybe they're offended by what you're saying. Maybe they're hurt by what you're saying. Maybe they're comforted by what you're saying. But what encouragement can you offer to the blood of Jesus Christ and the gospel message that he gives to us that they would help them be pointed back to Jesus?
DANIEL
Be…help them go. You know what? I've messed up, but God's grace is sufficient for all. What encouragement can you share for those people?
PASTOR BARRY
And I think that's what makes, you know, a topic like this difficult to talk about is because we don't know where everybody's at on this, even those who've gone through it, those who haven't gone through it, those who've been affected in various ways. We all have really strong opinions on this. A lot of times based on how we've been affected by it. Right. And I think this is true not just of divorce, but every time we come to God's Word, there's a chance it's going to sting. It's going to hurt. And that's what Jesus is doing here, is really confronting those who have not repented, who have not seen their sin. But yet there are others who know their sin, who acknowledge their guilt and maybe feel like, you know, their sin has excluded them, from experiencing, you know, the good that God has intended for marriage and with every sin.
PASTOR BARRY
I think once we repent of that, once we receive God's forgiveness, we know that God's intent then is for us to go out and to follow him, to try to do these things, not to obtain righteousness, because we've been given the righteousness of Christ. So we see that redemption picture over and over again throughout the Scripture, and how God can take something that was truly ungodly and, turn it into something beautiful, even, you know, last podcast, our Biblical Banter podcast, we talked about David and Bathsheba and the repentance that David experienced after that sin. And yet God blessed their marriage. And if you think of a marriage that God would not bless, you'd think it would be David and Bathsheba. I mean, just the terrible sin that brought them to that point. Yet David repented and God redeemed that relationship, you know, and, she would become, you know, part of Jesus's family tree.
DANIEL
And that's the gospel. Jesus, he takes divorce, whatever sin that we're in. And he goes, this is…my grace is sufficient. I'm going to wipe it away. But that part of repentance coming to the end of that sin, coming, acknowledging the sin, repenting from the sin, turning away from the sin, that's what's key. And that's what I hear. The encouragement that you're sharing is like God says, “no, I will forgive you. I will in…but be repentant. Humble yourselves. Come before me and it's yours.” As we walk in the grace of the gospel of Jesus Christ and acknowledge the severity of our sins, especially ones like divorce that happened in the past. You know, how does that? Okay, so, Pastor Barry, how do we walk in the grace of the gospel of Jesus Christ while still acknowledging the severity of sin, especially ones like divorce that happened in the past but still affect our present circumstances?
PASTOR BARRY
And I think that's excellent how you said that with acknowledging the severity of our sins but still walk in the grace of Jesus. And I think to really walk in the grace of Jesus, we need to start with that, acknowledging the severity of our sin, that it is serious. And sometimes, especially in divorce, there might be one side that is more responsible for the divorce than the other. And it's easy if you are the victim. And it even says that in, in this passage, it says, you know, I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality makes her the victim of adultery. And anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery. And so that idea of feeling like a victim of adultery, we still need to be careful that we don't justify ourselves or that I was right. Just because of that, to acknowledge that you are still part of a sin, even if the sin may not be, your sin that led to it. And really, when we're talking about sin, we're just talking about anything that falls short of God's standard. And so to acknowledge that that marriage fell short of God's standard for whatever reason and to not really have to, justify ourselves in that, just confess that, Lord, this fell short of your standard, I repent of that or repent of any sin because obviously we know there's no truly innocent party.
PASTOR BARRY
The tough thing with marriage is it requires two sinners to enter into it. And, those two sinners remain through it. And marriage is all about, you know, forgiving and being forgiven. And so to just acknowledge that this was not God's will for divorce too, but also to understand God's forgiveness, that he forgives us and his understanding that he understands, that it takes two. He understands that there are victims of divorce. There are people who their heart was to see the marriage through, were to be faithful and were faithful in their vows and the circumstances of life and the hardness of our hearts. Just made that impossible. And so, too, to understand that God knows our hearts. He knows what we've been through. He knows the actions of other people as well. And that God isn't. I hate to say he's not concerned about our past, but he really is way less concerned about our past as to where we're going. And God is much more interested in where your heart is now and where you're going now. We see that again, too, in those stories of redemption, that God didn't, you know, harp on those things that it's like, okay, here we are.
PASTOR BARRY
David and Bathsheba. Here we are. Where do we go from here? We start with acknowledging our sin, acknowledging that this was not a great way to get there. But where do we go now? And to really commit ourselves forward, to leaning on Jesus, to following Him, to really live that life of humility before Him and rejoicing too, to never forget to rejoice in His redemption, to rejoice that, in Jesus, there's always plans for us. There's always plans for a hope and a future. And to rejoice in that. Jesus never says, you know, I know the plans I have for you, to live in regret and shame. You know, it's always a hope and a future. And to take that seriously too. That yes, we acknowledge our sin. We acknowledge when we fall short, but we also rejoice that God's not done with us.
DANIEL
And that's what prevents a lot of us as believers from moving forward, you know, is we don't receive that joy that we talked about in the previous Barry’s Biblical Banter, or we're stuck dwelling on the sin, in this case, divorce. You know, like, we messed up. We did, and God says, “great, you messed up. Well not great, but you messed up. Guess what? My redemptive power, the power that I've offered through the cross and resurrection, gives an opportunity for you.” Now to go. Today is day one. Let's move forward. Let's work together. Let's, let's move into the new, the new say, but what prevents us from moving forward is being stuck dwelling on the past. But what does that mean then, as we come to the close here, what does that mean for us as Light Entrusted Disciples and congregations, when we meet people who are living with either past divorce or present circumstances where divorce might be an option on the table.
PASTOR BARRY
And I think when we're at that point, you know, we do have to remind ourselves that, you know, what is the will of God? The will of God is that we would, you know, experience that marriage of one man, one woman for life, that we would forgive one another. That if you're in that marriage, we need to hear, kind of that law of, you know, God is not a God who rejoices in divorce. But we also know that God is not a God who rejoices in continual sin as well. And so there there comes a point too where, you know, we we don't, want to justify, bad behavior on the other part, that Paul talks about, if you can live at peace, you know, if, if they're willing to live in peace with you, to do that, but we're not talking about using marriage as sort of a justification to live in an abusive relationship or, you know, whether it's emotional abuse, physical abuse, that God's heart is certainly not in that either, that there are multitudes of sins. And we don't want to justify other sins too to avoid, you know, divorce or something like that. But also too, you know, if that has already happened, just like all these other sins. And I think that's the main danger in this passage is a separate divorce from the others. That what Jesus is teaching us is our goal should always, to be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect.
PASTOR BARRY
And so whatever situation we find ourselves in, if we are dwelling on, you know, too much on how we got there and not dwelling on, what does God want from me now? You know, we talk about our relationship with brothers and sisters if we have a strained relationship. Okay, how did we get there? You know, we can dwell in those sins. We can dwell on the mistakes we made. But what does God want for me right now? What does he want me to do moving forward? To help repair those relationships. And if there's still a chance, you know, to save a marriage or even to reconcile if there's still that opportunity to reconcile, after divorce. There are times God has done that to, where maybe, somebody has reached, reached that brokenness and understood the severity of their sin and is willing to repent of that and, to try to repair that relationship. I mean, I think it all comes down to just asking, what does God want for me right now? How can I live obedient to God and His Spirit in all of my relationships where they are right now?
DANIEL
That's recognized. That's difficult. It's we I'm sorry. Let me let me rephrase that. We make it difficult by putting more pressure on ourselves, whether we're divorced, facing divorce or whatever. We put so much pressure on ourselves. It’s rather, Jesus says, you know, fix your eyes on me. Let me handle this right. Let me take care of it. Let me be God, Savior. And, you know, that's how we as congregations and other Light Entrusted Disciples surround others with the grace and love and mercy of Jesus Christ. That's, we make it more difficult than it needs to be. Right? And divorce is one of those things that, you know, you said we're not to separate that from the rest of the passage, but yet sometimes we treat it like it is separate, like it’s this…
PASTOR BARRY
And it's easy for us to do that. And it's especially easy for us to separate those sins that maybe we don't struggle with. Yeah. If we're not on the verge of divorce, if we've never gone through it, it's easy to say, well, a true Christian would never get to that point.
DANIEL
And It's easy to cast judgment on those then as well.
PASTOR BARRY
And maybe not realizing, too, that we're not doing everything we should be doing to improve our marriage. You know that maybe, okay, we're not divorced, but maybe we've got to a point where we've just settled for, you know, less than a godly marriage. And we just figure, well, as long as I'm just gutting it out that I'm being obedient to God. God doesn't want us to just gut out marriage. It should be a joy thing, too. And if we're not, you know, encouraging our spouse, if we're not loving our spouse, if we're not, you know, encouraging them in their walk with Christ, we really aren't fulfilling our vows either. And so too for those who aren't, you know, going through divorce or considering that as well for, for all of us, we should take this to, as a reminder, an opportunity. What does God want for me to do right now in my marriage? And to turn that too into a positive thing that when we really are focused on what God wants me to do in this moment, not only does it help us in those difficult times, but it helps us maybe to avoid some of those things in the future.
PASTOR BARRY
Maybe before we get to that point where we're angry with our brother, you know, and it builds up. Maybe there's a Step One right now we're on, and it's like, you know what? I really should ask for forgiveness for that little thing I did before. It turns into a big thing. And, and I think it's just learning to live that way in the moment. What is God calling me to do? Right now? To better follow him, to better demonstrate his love for others.
DANIEL
Right. Instead of trying to atone for my own sin, receive the grace, focus on him. That it's clear to me it might not be as crystal clear to a lot of our listeners right now. This is a hard topic to go through. It's a hard subject to talk about because it's a very real thing. It touches so many people's lives and, and things. But one of the bottom lines here I hear. What does Jesus have to say? Not what you think, but what does Jesus have to say in going to his word? Again, not trying to minimize your sin, but just going, no, Jesus has atoned for your sin. He's taking care of it.
PASTOR BARRY
Right? And instead of trying to minimize sin, we maximize that atonement. Yeah. And that's what really, again, goes back to bringing glory to God, that everything should be bringing glory to God. And we see that rejoicing in the redemption of God and Jesus genealogy, too, a lot of messy stories. But God used those and we just marvel at God and what he can do in the worst situations, how he can bring good out of it, how he can be glorified and work through his people in every situation.
DANIEL
Pastor Barry, thank you for taking time to talk through this, this tougher subject. And thank you for the insights from the, from the passages of Scripture here that we've looked at here. Thank you Pastor Barry.
PASTOR BARRY
Thank you for having me here.
DANIEL
Thank you for listening to this week's BeLED Family Podcast episode. Help us out by sharing this episode with your friends. You can also follow BeLED Family on Instagram or Facebook. If you would like to financially support our podcast, please follow the donation link found in the show description. Until next week, BeLED in all that you do.
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