Pastor Bruce and his wife Merv talk about being intentional in your marriage. They share their testimony of God strengthening their marriage and parenting through choosing to be intentional.
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TRANSCRIPT
INTRO
This is the BeLED Family Podcast.
PASTOR BRUCE
And generally, I'm a big fan of starting with myself, right? Like, so if I feel like we're disconnected instead of going, we're disconnected and it's your fault, to look at it and go, we're disconnected. And part of it is my fault.
DANIEL
Thank you for listening to this episode of the BeLED Family Podcast. I'm your host, Daniel, and I am glad to have you here. Thank you for being a faithful listener. In this episode, we are going to be talking about being intentional in your marriage, and here to talk about that are Bruce and Mary. Thank you or no Merv. We're going by Merv, right? Real name’s Mary…well, thank you both for being here on the BeLED Family Podcast. How are you guys doing?
MERV
Great.
PASTOR BRUCE
We're doing great.
DANIEL
Fantastic. So let's dive right into it. Would you take time, each of you take time, to tell us what being intentional in your marriage looks like? Define that for us.
PASTOR BRUCE
I'll start. And I would say that for me, for being intentional in our marriage is seeing more than just your marriage as something that takes intentionality. So kind of what I mean by that is like when I think about being intentional in my marriage, it requires me to be intentional in so much else. I have to be intentional at work to get done with work on time, to get home, to have time to be with my family. I have to spend quality time with my kids so that I have quality time to spend with my wife. And so it's that idea that it encompasses everything, right? We tend to think that intentionality in marriage means being romantic, like going out on a date. And if you limit it to just that being romantic, just going out on dates, just getting flowers, you're missing out on so much more. And so it's prioritizing not just the business of marriage, if you will. Not just prioritizing who's picking up the kids, who's bringing them to sports practice, who's paying the bills. But it's prioritizing all of those components.
MERV
Right. And when I think of intentional marriage, just a host of like day to day things come to mind. Like, when Bruce gets home from work, if I'm home already, I really try to stop what I'm doing and greet him, look him in the eye, put the phone down. Sometimes in the evenings, just putting our phones down and talking and connecting in that way. Another practical thing with being intentional, kind of Bruce talked about this, just avoiding over-scheduling. I'm terrible at that. I will say yes to everybody else. And then our marriage, our family, is the one that kind of gets the leftovers. And so, yeah, prioritizing our marriages is a lot of those little things and just giving them our best.
DANIEL
Obviously most marriages, hopefully all marriages, start off with intentionality. I mean, if you think about that, without intentionality, there probably wouldn't be a marriage, there wouldn't be the whole married couple thing. So it's easy to watch a marriage slip out of intentionality. I will use the word…kind of mediocrity, just kind of, just going through the motions. Did that for you guys as you define what intentional marriage is, was there a time for you guys that you hit that? And what kind of helped awaken you two, specifically you guys, to be more intentional? What you just described.
MERV
Yeah, that's definitely happened. We've been married almost 18 years. And, you know, everybody talks about seasons in life, and there were definitely some challenging seasons. And there were definitely times when we didn't feel as close and we felt like we had drifted apart from each other. And it it really didn't feel good. It it didn't sit well, I don't think, with either of us. And so, some of the things that we, you know, did, was just to recognize it, and…
DANIEL
How did you recognize it, though?
MERV
Yeah, I think it was just kind of like this constant assessment of things like, this, you know, this is not going well. We are not connecting. I don't know where he's at. I don't feel like he knows where I'm at. And, yeah, kind of saying that, that's one thing.
PASTOR BRUCE
But I think one of the ways that we saw it as – we really were roommates or business partners, right? We had kind of lost that connection, that deeper connection. And part of the way that we recognized that and stepped out of that was calling it out. Like just saying, hey, I don't feel like we're as close as we used to be, and we don't like that, right? There were some other things, some external things that made it apparent, like we're…looking back, I would say we're pretty lucky that we had some pretty hard things come into our life that forced us to acknowledge that this is going to take effort. We can't just glide along. Right? And so those were some of those moments when some of that stuff came up where we went, we have a choice. You know, it's kind of that fight or flight mentality. And by the grace of God, fight is what we…not with each other, but fight for our marriage is what we chose. Is we're going to step into this rather than step away.
DANIEL
Can you guys talk…Would you talk a little bit about that? What did that fight look like?
PASTOR BRUCE
Well, I think so, this is kind of the big one as I look back in my life, in our life, there was a point in time where I was a youth pastor and I just found out I was losing my job. We had twins that were in the hospital and had just come home and were on heart rate monitors, and, Merv's dad was diagnosed with cancer all in the span of less than a month. And that was not a great time. And I vividly have this memory of standing in the hallway and arguing with God and being like: God, I have all of these logs in my raft, and they're all separating and drifting apart. And it was like he spoke to me and said, well, there's one log that hasn't left you, meaning God. Which logs are you going to grab onto? Are you going to grab onto the log of job security or whatever? And that was that moment where I said, I have to prioritize those things that are most important, and it's God first and my family second. And so that was one of those, I don't know if you have any.
MERV
Yeah. And I, I kind of just remember like, again, like to me just looking at the person, looking at Bruce and being like, you know, this is this is my husband, this is the man that I married. And we are on the same team. Even though I don't feel close to him right now. He's got a lot going on. I've got a lot going on. You know, we didn't have a lot of extra, but just deciding that, like, we are on the same team, we're going to do this together. Things are falling apart, but you know we're going to, we're going to stay together. And, you know, scraping together whatever time we could, exhausted talks in the middle of the night, you know, where we just really poured out our heart to each other. You know, we probably said no to a lot of things at that time. We probably stepped back from some things and, you know, maybe let some people down. But there was also a lot of understanding, I think, because we had a young family and, you know, I think people understood, like, yeah, they need time together too. We had a lot of support that way. You know, we had people…I got some advice. If somebody comes to you when you have like a new baby and they say, well, when can we watch the baby, like, have your calendar out and be like, oh, this night, like, schedule it. And, and we took advantage of pretty much everybody who offered to watch our kids so we could, you know, do that.
DANIEL
I think every parent should. I mean, if somebody says, hey, I’ll watch your kids, the answer is okay.
MERV
Right? Especially when they're little. So little.
DANIEL
So was it was you guys recognize it? Calling it out, going enough is enough. But with that can sometimes come, maybe…How did you guys prevent becoming defensive from the other person? Because when you start to be in tension with the other person, a natural response can be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? Why are you attacking me? But it wasn't. How did you guys fight that urge to be defensive?
MERV
I think the biggest thing for me is trust. You know, and trust levels can go up and down, I think, between any two people, you know, you have friends that break your trust. A spouse can break your trust in some ways. And then there's some work to build that back up. But I did trust Bruce and I just kept going back to that, like, you know we're on the same team, and I…
DANIEL
You needed to keep speaking that to yourself.
MERV
Right? Yep, yep.
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. And I would add to that, and forgive me because this came from a book and I don't remember which book, so, this is not an original thought to me. But they talk about breaking the cycle, right? Because you can get in this downward spiral. Oh, it’s “Love and Respect.” Now, remember which book it was. And I feel unloved, and therefore I act disrespectfully, or I feel disrespected and I act unloving. And they talked in there about choosing to break that cycle. And again, I think a big part of it is just calling it out. So, you know, I remember we've had so many conversations where we've stepped aside into our bedroom or something like that, where I've said that felt hurtful and instead of saying, you hurt me, you know, to be able to say like that felt hurtful. What did I miss? What happened, you know, is part of that, like she said, that trust. That I don't assume that she came out maliciously to harm me, but rather that, you know, when you're frustrated, when you're hurt, you say things, you do things
DANIEL
Right.
PASTOR BRUCE
And we have a choice in that moment. Like, am I going to take that as what my flesh wants me to take it as, as hurtful, angry, malicious? Or am I going to choose to look at that and say, that's not the person I married, so I bet there's something else going on.
DANIEL
I mean, that is the grace of God at work.
PASTOR BRUCE
Right.
DANIEL
To be able to go, oh, I take a step back and see it as the Lord sees it, not be defensive, not to be attacking and then be on the attack after that. And too because your emotions can really mess with you if you let them.
MERV
PASTOR BRUCE
And I think with that it's been quick to apologize. Like she said it, like I have broken her trust. I have said hurtful things and there have been times where I haven't broken the cycle. And so I think for all of us it's stepping in when we do and being quick to apologize and own that and say, you're right, I was unloving. You're right, I broke your trust. You're right, I was in the wrong. I think it's so huge to keeping that trust going and staying engaged.
DANIEL
Now, as you guys are finding that, as you guys are kind of circling back to being more on the same page, more together. What were some of the things that you saw happen or what/how did the marriage change after you reunited? Repurposed yourselves to be on the same page.
MERV
I think one thing that I have really come to appreciate with our marriage is, there's almost now like a unspoken working together. There is no job, you know, that's strictly for Bruce. No job in the house that's strictly for me. It's kind of whatever needs to be done will get done. And so we kind of, I think, have built up to that, like just seeing what needs to happen, what needs to get done. And, and have, you know, I'll see him step in and do stuff. And to me, it was seeing some, really acts of humility. That again just kind of confirm, you know, this is a good man and that's, you know, telling that to yourself too, you know, I think is, is helpful and yeah, it just slowly over time, trust continues to build. And, and then you've got really a solid foundation I think as the years go on.
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. We went through kind of in that same time, like I talked about losing my job and then I went part time, and that was a unique time for us in our marriage and in our life, because we kind of switched roles. And I went to being a stay-at-home parent at least part time, and she was the primary breadwinner for that period of time. And we didn't like that, that didn't fit our personalities the best, but it was where we had to be for a time. And in some ways, we're still reaping the rewards of that because I've been the one who's been home all day and then had my wife come home from a busy day at work. And so I know what it's like to be at work all day and come home. And she knows what it's like to be at work all day and come home. And so we have that where we both kind of have that appreciation for the other's spot that they're at now. And then we have a good friend, named Nick, who told us that you do all the work and I do all the work and all the work never gets done. And just kind of having that mindset of, we're going to keep working at this, and it's never really going to stop. And instead of looking at everything I do and assume you're doing nothing, I'm gonna assume you're doing everything and I'm doing everything, and we're still not going to get it all done.
DANIEL
I'm starting to see the intentionality…how important it is in marriage and how when that lacks in a marriage, how some of those, what know what we call them, but something can kind of build up where it prevents you from intentionality. Right. And it's a redundant, it's a weird statement, but yet it's true. So you guys obviously recognize that. You saw…you did something about it. You were intentional about moving back into intentionality, about being on the same page, about those things. Practices, understanding, have a better understanding of each other. Having those things and today, you guys are, you're obviously you're talking about it because you've experienced it. And what are the practices for you today before we get into some other advice, encouragement for others. For you two, what are some of those practices that you make sure that you guys do now to make sure that you stay in that mode of intentionality?
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah, so one of the things that we're big on is scheduling stuff. Like, and I mean, scheduling stuff that you don't like to think of as being stuff that should be scheduled. Like we're big fans of scheduling, paying our bills or that kind of stuff in life, but we're not big fans of scheduling maintenance on your marriage. And like, I mean, I'm the same way with my car. My car needs regular oil changes. I'm terrible at scheduling it. Right? We just wait until it's too late and we can't do that with our marriage. So having some of those things scheduled, even scheduling alone time, scheduling date time, scheduling. I mean, we're all, in today's day and age, at some level, victims of our schedules and so prioritizing those things that need to be prioritized. So scheduling I think is a huge one for us.
MERV
Right. And the things that we have right now didn't happen all at once. It was like we started doing something and we're like, hey, you know, last week… So Tuesday mornings the kids get on the bus. We don't have to be anywhere right away. And so that worked out really well to just take time to pray together. We just figured that out like in the last year. So we went 17 years without having a regular time to pray together. We would pray together, but it wasn't regular. And now we're like, oh, we didn't pray on Tuesday, we're off. You know, like, it's helped so much. And then we have a three mile walk that we do too, as much as we can. Just sometimes it's once a week, sometimes it's like three times a week. And that's so helpful to just hear about our day and decompress. Our kids are old enough now where we can leave them at home to do that. We didn't always have that luxury. Sometimes they were in a stroller. Sometimes there were years that that never happened. So those are our two things. That, yeah, we've really scheduled it regularly.
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. Because I think, I think one of the things is we are victims of our schedule, and therefore sometimes we sacrifice that which is great because we want to do something that is good. And I think being intentional is acknowledging that I'm going to give up something that's really good, because I want something that's really great. And I think we're really good at doing that, like at work, especially in the corporate world. We're really good at doing that with personal pleasure, like hobbies and that kind of stuff. Saving money. We're not as good at that with our marriage, right? Marriages tend to be the last thing on our priority list. So we go to work, and then we got to take the kids to practice, and then we got to go to this, and then we got to go to that. And then we look at each other at the end of the day and go, well, I guess we ran out of time again and we've sacrificed something great because we wanted something that was good and intentionality of saying, there are going to be some things we say no to because we want something that's great.
DANIEL
Now we've had a great discussion about this, and you guys have shared your story of how you guys ended up there. But let's shift gears a little bit. What about those couples that are listening that don't know they're not being intentional. They're maybe where you were, maybe somewhere different? Are there warning signs that couples can be aware of? You guys have talked about some of the warning signs that were for you, but are there other things that you would share with us or maybe, you know, kind of talk about those warning signs again, that people can be aware of? And are there preventative measures that they could take? To…maybe there aren't warning signs, but are there things that couples can do to make sure that they don't fall into mediocrity? As we just said earlier.
MERV
I think one of the warning signs is just this person next to me is a stranger, or this person that I share a house with is a stranger. That, to me, is a warning sign. And that's where, you know, if you don't know what's going on in their heart, if you don't know what their concerns for the week are, if you don't know what they're struggling with, I think that's kind of showing that there's been some drift, some, separation in that close, not that closeness, that you probably desire. And so I think that's a warning sign.
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. And I think that, just to add on to that part of that being a stranger is, you know, you know this person so well that you can get in the habit of just assuming that you know them and that you understand them. But when you don't understand why they're frustrated or don't, that's when they're a stranger. You know, before we got married, we took some premarital counseling and we took this assessment that told us we were really good at communication because when we were dating, we didn't live together. She lived in south Minneapolis. I was living in Waconia, Minnesota, and we had to communicate well because we lived so far apart and then we got married and our communication fell apart because we assumed it would happen just naturally. So we lost that component of our relationship. And so, you know, and that's kind of what we mean by that being a stranger is that even though we were in the same house and in some ways more intimate than we had ever been, we had lost this other thing, you know, and so and so that's I think, what we mean by being a stranger and I think that's where you can start to feel like, like I said earlier, business partners or roommates, I think a big warning sign is I know and Merv knows about me that we want to be at home together, we want to spend time together. And so even like when I'm doing good things, like hanging out with a friend, she knows that as soon as I can realistically come home, I'm going to. And when she's out doing something else, I know that as soon as she realistically can, she's going to come home. I think when we, when you lose that feeling, when it feels like the person would rather be someplace else, when that person doesn't want to spend time with you, or when you find that, yourself, that you would rather be somewhere else, or you would rather spend time doing something else. Those are some big warning signs that the drift is happening. Right. And and so, that's a great time to, you know, choose to break that cycle and go, I used to. I mean, think about when you're dating, like you would get that text or that phone call and you'd be excited about spending time together. When that is gone, there's an opportunity to step in and go, why is that gone? And what do I need to do to correct that?
DANIEL
It's almost like we recognize that maybe, you know, if it's gone, that's one thing. But let's recognize it can change, right? It does change. So some people can maybe misinterpret it changing with it being gone. It just as it changes, you need to change. As a marriage grows, you change, and your intentionality becomes a little different, right?
PASTOR BRUCE
Right. Yeah, totally. Because like, there was a time when we had little kids at home that I desperately desired to be out of the house for my own sanity, but I never desperately desired to not be with my wife. You know, like there is a change in there, and there is…there are some reasonable times where you go, look, I really miss my friends. I really miss my hobbies. I really miss, you know, I have a friend right now going through some challenging stuff, and I really wanted to be home on Tuesday night, but knew I needed to take the time to spend time with him. Yeah, right. So there is, there is that dynamic as well. But yeah, I think it's that heart desire, you know.
DANIEL
Now it's, it's obvious there are marriages that can slip in and out of this, you know, in intentionality and then slip out again. It's just whether you like it or not, It's part of life. We just have those moments up and down, down and up. What …when that happens, what has helped you guys to kind of manage those swings? I mean, do you call each other out? What are some of those things?
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. Calling each other out is a big one.
DANIEL
In a gentle way.
PASTOR BRUCE
In a gentle and loving way. And generally I'm a big fan of starting with myself. Right. Like so, if I feel like we're disconnected instead of going, we're disconnected, then it's your fault to look at it and go, we're disconnected and part of it is my fault. So I, I heard a therapist, a friend of mine, once make the comment, like, in a disagreement, if you could establish values to that disagreement. Hey, this disagreement is 80% your fault and 20% mine. We can't do that. But imagine if you could. And the question was, even if the disagreement is 99% the other person's fault, are you willing to take 100% responsibility for your 1%? You know, are you willing to own your part in that? And for me, starting there and saying, look, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say this out loud, but in my heart saying, look, this might be not entirely my fault, might not even be majority, my fault, but I’m going to start owning my part first, because now I'm showing that I'm coming in with humility. I'm coming in with intentionality, and I'm willing to work on this.
DANIEL
Do you want to share more?
PASTOR BRUCE
I think another thing that we do as far as, like to help prevent that slipping in and out, one of the things we've scheduled that we've kind of mentioned is, every couple of years we go on a marriage retreat, and finding a marriage retreat that works for you and your spouse, like finding one. We've been to some that are like really, really content heavy, some that are really, really, relational focused and finding the one that that fits you as a couple the best and putting that in there and knowing that, you know, for us that's every couple of years, you know, that's like going in and, you know, getting the oil changed. It's just a good thing we know we're going to come out better. And then finding just 1 or 2 takeaways from that instead of trying to, you know, they give you a workbook with like a thousand things to do and you just can't do it. So picking 1 or 2 and taking them away, right.
DANIEL
As we start to come to the close here, we haven't talked about this a lot, but just briefly here. How have you seen being intentional in your marriage impact the way that you parent your children?
PASTOR BRUCE
One of the things that I think we're big fans of is the idea that when you get married, you're a family, you don't have kids and become a family. So we were a family before we had kids. We invited kids into a family. They joined. Because someday the kids are going to leave, right? And we're going to be back to being a family without kids in the home. And, so of course, it's going to therefore, if you see it that way, then you're married. You see how your marriage deeply affects every aspect of your parenting because you were a family already. And so, however your marriage is doing is going to determine how well your family is doing. And so it affects every component.
MERV
Right? I see that phrase “more is caught than taught.” Just our kids watching how Bruce and I, you know, will ask for forgiveness from each other, say I'm sorry. How we’ll, for the most part, speak to each other kindly, work through conflicts. Hopefully they're picking up on that stuff. It doesn't always show up right away, but hopefully the long term effects will be there. One kind of funny thing is I do think our kids know they can't do that. Like dad said, no. So I'm going to go ask mom. Like, that is just not going to work. Don't even try to mess with us in that way. So I think they definitely know that because they've really never done that.
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. The couple of times where something like that has been tried, like I'm pretty big on, they'll come to me and be like, well, can we do this? And one of the first things I'll say, it's like, well, did you already ask your mom? Yeah. Well, what did she say, well, she said no. Okay, there's your answer. You know.
DANIEL
Why are you coming to me?
PASTOR BRUCE
Why are you coming to me? Because it is. And that's just. But I think that brings safety to them. They know, as much as those boundaries, they might not like them in that moment, that is a sense of safety and security for kids, and especially where they're at developmentally.
DANIEL
Right. Right. Do you guys have resources that would be helpful for our listeners when they think about being intentional?
MERV
One great resource that we stumbled upon years ago by accident, was a fantastic marriage retreat down in Georgia. But it is worth the trip. It was the WinShape Marriage Retreat, and they do it several times throughout the year. We have gone on our own, and we have dragged people with us who loved it. And, we really wanted to share that with some of our friends. So we highly recommend that. But really any, any marriage retreat. I think there's, there's benefits that you can always find from that intentional time away to focus on your marriage.
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. Another one we did was The Weekend to Remember. So that's one that if you know, the WinShape one is really good if you can get to Georgia. Weekend to Remember kind of comes to you. So they do it all over the country. And that one, that one's a little more…like I said, the WinShape one is a little more relational-oriented. Weekend to Remember is a little more content-oriented. So some people will like one over the other. But that's another one. We're a big fan of, PREPARE/ENRICH does a couple checkup that you can do where you go on and as a couple you sit like on separate computers or you access it at a different time, but you take a couple survey and it compiles some results for you and gives you some tools and some areas to work on. So we've done that a couple of times, just as a like… That's where we kind of learned about the communication thing. When our communication dropped off the radar, it was doing one of those that we went, oh, we scored really well in this before and now we're terrible at it.
DANIEL
Oh yeah.
PASTOR BRUCE
That gives us some areas. You know, it kind of gives you a couple of areas to focus on for growth and development.
DANIEL
Those are great. Those links will be in the description of the show here. But a last question for you guys and thank you for being really gracious with your time, and in talking through this. I'm sure we could talk for much longer about being intentional in marriage. But last question here is: our desire at BeLED family is to glorify the Lord and all that we do. How have you seen God glorified through being intentional in your marriage?
MERV
I think the best way that I've seen God glorified in our marriage is just being that safe place to be who you are, be who God made you. We are made in the image of God. And when your spouse calls things out in you and there's truth in what they're saying, I think that is the most God honoring part of a marriage.
PASTOR BRUCE
Yeah. In our own personal spiritual formation. Definitely. Like the way Merv has helped me grow, the way I think I've helped her grow. But I also think, you know, we have some couple friends who, like I said, we've taken on marriage retreats with us. We have a couple friends who have come up to us and said, how are you guys doing that is different. And being able to share not only the practical of what we do, but why we do it because, you know, God values marriage and God values marriage relationships. And so it's a way that we can bring spirituality into the conversation with our neighbors, into the conversation with our friends and family members who aren't walking with the Lord, just how deeply our faith affects that. And I think, and I think in our kids, you know. As a former youth pastor, like youth, spiritual formation is huge. And I know how important the family is. And they have so much more influence than any teacher, coach, youth pastor, youth volunteer. It starts in the home. And so that's a big one. Yeah.
DANIEL
Well, thank you Bruce and Merv for sharing with us. Thank you for being intentional while talking about being intentional in marriage. Really appreciate your time, willingness to talk about that. Thank you very much for being here.
PASTOR BRUCE
Thank you for having us.
DANIEL
Thank you for listening to this week's BeLED Family Podcast episode. We appreciate you taking the time to tune in. Help us by sharing this podcast with your friends. Support the BeLED Family Podcast and BeLED Family by visiting us at our website, beledfamily.com, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Until the next episode, BeLED in all that you do.
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