Pastor Aaron and Michelle share the importance of being able to laugh with each other in marriage. Laughter is an important part of home discipleship, and their stories will encourage you to laugh more.
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TRANSCRIPT
INTRO
This is the BeLED Family Podcast.
PASTOR AARON
Sometimes humor helps you be intentional, and it also gives you a little tension relief.
DANIEL
I would like to welcome to the BeLED Family Podcast. Aaron and Michelle. So glad that they are a part of this podcast. They have great things to share. We're going to be talking about laughing in your marriage, which is a healthy thing. Aaron and Michelle are very active people. They have three children, which keeps them quite active. If you have 3 children, 4, 5, 6, 7 or even 2, you know how busy it can get and I appreciate them. Watching them from a distance as parents. They are fantastic parents and there's so much that we can learn from them, so I'm excited to have them. Aaron is a pastor of his local congregation and does a great job leading the people at his church. Michelle substitute teaches at her local school from K to 12, wherever the need is, and she's also an adjunct faculty member at the local Bible college where they live.
DANIEL
So welcome to the podcast. Aaron and Michelle, how are you guys doing?
PASTOR AARON
Oh we're great. Thanks for having us.
DANIEL
No problem.
PASTOR AARON
It’s so fun to be together.
DANIEL
It is fun to be together. Now, you guys have a wonderful marriage. I know that oftentimes in marriages we don't tend to believe that about ourselves. But hear it from others, right? That you guys have a wonderful marriage. And from observation, watching you guys for many years, your marriage is very strong, and it is clear to me that the Lord has brought you two together. Now, Michelle, you and I go a lot longer than Aaron and I have gone, but I remember having conversations way back in the day about that. So it's clear that the Lord has brought you together. And also from observation, it is clear that you are different from each other which is a good thing. It's a very good thing. First, will you talk about what some of those differences are, and then how those differences have caused you to grow together?
MICHELLE
Yeah, we’d love to. So a couple differences that affect our marriage on like a daily basis. I tend to be a planner, the organizer, the saver. Aaron, how would you describe yourself?
PASTOR AARON
Poverty mentality. If you spend it, you can spend it until it's gone. Give it away to people because someone's given you stuff. Yeah, the process isn't as important as being side by side. And that's not to say that the process is important to planners, but it's just the difference. It's kind of what you lead with.
MICHELLE
Yeah. And so when you talk about how did those differences cause us to grow together, we…we have a lot of conversations, a lot of misunderstandings, and then hopefully understanding. So…
DANIEL
Talk about those conversations. Because sometimes when there's opposites and there's confliction, when there's conflict between two people in marriage, conversation we know is a very large key. And in a previous podcast with Jerry and Kristi, we talked about how important conversations are in marriages. Can you talk a little bit about how you two, specifically, how did you guys work that out?
PASTOR AARON
Well, I mean, correct me Michelle for real, because I don't remember things exactly, but for me, I've realized you just have to over-communicate. My problem and this isn't hers at all. Actually it’s hers because she's married to it. But I forget stuff. Like she can tell me four times, but if it's not something that's on the top of my pile, not in a selfish way. It's more how my brain works. If it's not…when we first got married, she gives me a grocery list. I go to the grocery store, I buy everything but the thing that she wanted, not because I don't love my wife, but because I don't like orange juice. So I don't think about orange juice. I don't care about orange juice. It's, so she has, it's not. Maybe it is selfish, but for me, it's not me thinking of myself so much as I don't…I had to learn how she thinks. So that I could…so you know. She’ll tell me something, I go: “Honey, you're going to have to tell me it three more times at different times, because my brain won't remember, and I really want to, I just can't.”
MICHELLE
And then with that, Aaron has promised that when I remind him he won't get frustrated. Because nobody wants to be the nagging wife, nobody wants to be the nagging parent. And yet it can feel like that. Or it can become that. If we don't have an understanding of hey, he said it was okay for me to say it again, he said it was okay for me to remind him again. And then, along with the conversations, like I get energized by planning. Like when I have my color coded calendar, I'm so happy and it gives me joy. It sucks the life out of Aaron.
PASTOR AARON
I have a panic attack when I see it. It just gives me anxiety. But here's the flip side. So she's really good at seeing what I need, loving me where I'm at. And she'll ask, not so much tiptoeing just: “is this a good time to talk about some planning?” The way that I can love her where she's at is: “how about we go for a walk?” And during the walk we plan. During the walk, we talk about our day. We talk about the week. We talk about the things that my planning wife loves to talk about. And I get to exercise and she gets her, gets her planning fixed. So, I do think she wins on this one like she does better at meeting me at what I need. And I'm still growing at meeting her what she needs.
MICHELLE
And along the lines with the planning thing like, I've also learned to do it in short bursts. Like I could plan all day long. Aaron, Aaron cannot, and that's good. And so: “hey, this is what I'm thinking.” Walk away. Do like a…yeah, like almost a burst. Like, “here you go, just a tad,” and then I'm out.
PASTOR AARON
And you didn't ask this but kind of a theme, we laugh about it. We don't, you know, we don't put each other down over it. But I go, yeah, of course, you told me four times and I forgot. And we joke about it. We've learned that, you know, you're probably not going to change. She's not going to ever not be a planner. And I, I've grown in planning, but I'm never going to love it. But we’ve just, we've learned to laugh with it, and, I go, “well, I think we need some more post-it notes.” It's like a jab at her lists everywhere. You know? We just learn to have fun with it. And, you know.
DANIEL
Having intentional conversations about having conversations. I know it sounds weird, but I wonder if sometimes marriages, married couples struggle because they're not having those intentional conversations. Now, Aaron you talked about laughing and that's what we're talking about, so as we talk about laughing and how important that is to both of you, will you explain what that looks like? Go a little more in-depth so that we have a clear understanding, you know, what kind of laughter that we're talking about?
MICHELLE
I think there's at least two, I'm going to say, ground rules. One, you're not laughing at a person, but with. And I think we've emphasized, well, sometimes, hopefully.
PASTOR AARON
Usually.
MICHELLE
Second one is, yes, second one is not making fun of the others, but maybe making fun of ourselves. So I think when you're the first to say: “hey, I messed up and it's kind of funny,” then it helps give the other person permission to think it's funny too.
PASTOR AARON
The famous line usually, and I’ve…you know how you become like your spouse, she used to say this, now I do too. She'll come home or I'll come home and go: “so…I did a thing.” What that means is I got signed up for the ballet or I've got, you know, just something that it usually means I signed you up for a puzzling contest. I mean, just something like, “what did you do?” And usually it means I hurt myself, or I made a purchase that I didn't ask her first. I'm being honest, and I tell her. But, “so I did a thing…” And so we start by giggling instead of…it relieves some of the tension. It's fun.
MICHELLE
Well, and like, for example, the other week my daughter made those cupcake cones, you know, great little thing. And I decided to bring them to a friend's house in a car without… I don't know how people transport these, but my technique was not good. It was the most stressful 20 minute car ride I think we've ever had. Well, I just…
PASTOR AARON
They were flopping all over creation and she just kept going. #winning. We are winning.
MICHELLE
I mean, there might have been frosting everywhere and they looked terrible by the time we got there, but we sure laughed along the drive.
PASTOR AARON
The whole drive. Now.
MICHELLE
And none of them spilled on the floor. No, that's not true. One of them spilled on the floor, but that’s fine.
PASTOR AARON
That was superior driving though. That wasn't, it was just whoever was driving you that day was phenomenal.
MICHELLE
Yes, but that's one where I can make fun of myself and go: “That was a fail.” That was one of those: “It didn't work out.” We make fun of it.
DANIEL
What, what? Okay, so in that situation, you guys were able to laugh at it. Because there are people I know that would not handle that situation in the same way. So what is somebody who's listening? They're like, “Okay, Michelle and Aaron, they're the perfect couple. They got it all figured out. Their cone cupcakes.” That's not what they're saying. They're saying they've chosen. You guys have chosen to make… There's nothing you can do at that point. You can either be super upset, get super frustrated and angry and take it out on your spouse, or you can choose to laugh. How did you get to that point where you can? Well, you've given us great tips of not laughing at but with people. Not making fun of others but ourselves. You know, choosing. Being intentional about choosing laughter. What tips or what advice can you help them, help our listeners, when they're stuck in that situation, they go: “Yeah, we'll laugh about this.”
PASTOR AARON
Well, say we have a fight, because we never fight. But hypothetically, if we fought…
MICHELLE
That’s a joke, by the way.
PASTOR AARON
I will…and usually you need a little space. And I'll go get busy because I like to be busy, and Michelle will read her book or whatever, and then I'll come back and I'll go: “So, want to chit-chat?”, and we're both still angry. But sometimes humor helps you be intentional, and it also gives you a little tension relief. It's like a balloon that's overfilled and you just let a little air out of it. Not a lot. You don't let it explode. You just kind of…you don't want to overdo it, because, I mean, this isn't funny. You're hurting, but at the same time. Oh, especially in where we live, in the part of a country that we live, people will often repress their feelings and not deal with it. And, I'm not judging that. I'm just saying that you have different cultures in different parts of the country, and it's a way to make us feel and work through our feelings, maybe more accurately said. Without doing them all at once or…It just… So like, I don't know, react to that Michelle.
MICHELLE
Well, I was going to. Yes, I would agree. I think it relieves some tension in a positive way and opens up a conversation that needs to have about the…yeah. I think Aaron's 100% said it correctly. What I was going to say is like the cupcake story, Aaron and I had a stressful day that day. Like, just one of those bad days, and then I come in with cupcakes that, I mean, it's just a mess. And so I could see it on Aaron., the tension in that moment. Like this was the last thing he wanted to deal with on that drive. Yeah, pick whatever tense situation. And I was like, well, I can either laugh at myself or we could all tense up. And I'm going to just laugh at myself, and I could see Aaron make a choice at some point going: “well, I'm going to laugh with her.” So at some point, it is a choice that both of us made. Like we could get annoyed and frustrated, or we could look at each other and go: “this is what's happening today.” There's, you know, and and in that case, it's annoying, but it's not serious. You know, like if a cupcake falls on the floor, it's annoying, but it's not serious. So to take a second and go, “does this fall into the category of life altering moments?” No. So let's make a choice to laugh together and make a memory for our family of ridiculousness, you know?
DANIEL
Right? It takes away the self-centeredness. In a way. It strips a person of being focused on themselves by choosing not to focus on how they feel their frustration, but to go: “no, let's make the most of this situation.” Yeah. Aaron, did you have something you wanted to add to that?
PASTOR AARON
Well, yeah, I'm trying to think through these questions, because I'm not very fast at processing, but this is what the processes revealed. I find I do much better when the other person leads in the humor. Now, that could be preference. But in a tense situation, I find that the way we can serve our spouse, family member, parishioner, whoever, is initiate instead of wait, I made that up. I don't know if it's a phrase, but, I mean… So, Michelle, I had a bad day. It was, it was…I don't remember it, but it was. It was a bad day. And instead of being tense, she projected humor and it wore me down, and it broke through. And I'm not even sure if I wanted it to. But it did. If she would have waited for me to laugh at it, we probably wouldn't have laughed. So, and then when she said earlier about, you know, not never, you're not self-deprecating, but same time, you're definitely not making fun of somebody else. You're just kind of poking at yourself. But it worked. And she was kind of doing two things. She was being intentional about, well, embrace it. She was also being intentional about helping her husband on a hard day. And it worked. It was very effective.
DANIEL
What I don't want to hear over and over again through this is so far just is being very selfless. And when you're not focused on yourself, you're able to initiate, you're able to go: “You know, I'm going to get over the way I might think. I'm going to get over the way I feel. Because what's more important is this relationship, this marriage that I have.” And so let's not initiate, or not let's not wait, let's initiate, let's take it and and in this specific case, laughter is kind of that…is a good denominator to help us get into each other. You know, and it probably takes time for any couple to start that journey. To not think that, going back to your rules, probably takes some time for the other person to not think that they're being laughed at but actually laughed with. It's important to remember that God gave us laughter. It's a healthy aspect in not just marriage, but in life, and we need that. And in my opinion, I think a lot of people need to loosen up sometimes and be able to laugh and be able to do what God has given them. I mean, it's healthy for our souls, and it allows us to not take ourselves too seriously. It prevents us from becoming stiff, stale. And I know some people who don't laugh, who become grumpy. And it's important to laugh with our children as well. And you guys have three. But how have you seen laughter improve your relationship with your children?
MICHELLE
That's a great question. And I think laughter…one, kids love to laugh, right? There's nothing better than a baby's giggles. Like when they start laughing as kids. Like, the whole room is so excited. They're like, my baby's laughing. And then also in society, too. I mean, people pay good money to go to comedy shows, and I feel like our family is kind of one big comedy show every day. Like with three children, it doesn't matter.
PASTOR AARON
Dumpster fire, comedy show, you know, it's…
MICHELLE
It's kind of the same. And so when you laugh with your kids, I think it's the best feeling for both of you, right? Like, it brings a joy, a love, a peace into your home even. And it helps your kids talk about hard issues, too. Like when hard things happen. If we can laugh about it a little bit, sometimes that's the only way to make it through it, right?
DANIEL
Michelle, it's so appropriate because even this morning on the way, when I was dropping off my son. He helps Run Sound at our local church for the women's Bible study. He's had a busier week than normal. Tomorrow is a much busier day for him, and he knows that. And he knows that his attitude when he gets, when it's busy like this, can sink. So I reminded him, I said: “Hey, just you know, I know that you've been busy. You've been doing great at it. You've been getting sleep as much as you can. I know that you're not getting as much as you'd like, but just remember to keep your attitude in check. You know, and make good choices when you're interacting with not only people that you interact with, but also most importantly, your siblings.” And I said, you know, “I just want to remind you, because you're good at this, you're great at this. And sometimes we all kind of sometimes fall back.” And then I said this: “So you have one job, don't mess it up!” And he started laughing. But the point was taken. He knew it. And I just, at that moment, I felt like laughter was a kind of a way to break… Not, there was no ice buildup, but it was just to break. This is a serious conversation, but laughter kind of eases the seriousness of it for my child. And he understood. He knows his assignment. And then we talked for a few minutes about like what…he said: “What movie do you think of when you hear that line?” I said, “I don't know. It's in like every movie possible.” We had a good moment about that. But, other ways that you've seen laughter improve your relationship with your children?
PASTOR AARON
Well, I've noticed that our children, I mean, I don't know if this is chicken or egg, but I've noticed that all three of our children have tried to make us laugh. They tell jokes. They wear funny t-shirts intentionally. They try to make us…And I don't know if that's because it's been modeled probably a little bit, but I think it's more than that. Michelle even hit on something right away, that baby giggle, I mean, it's baked in the cake. I mean, we're created in his image. I think God laughs. I think he laughs with us. I think he likes it when we laugh. There's something to that. And I'm glad you said that, because I wouldn't have thought of that. But…
MICHELLE
So we have our kids are in the middle school age, right? Junior high. We're right in that pre-teen era of parenting. Hard story. We moved last year and our daughter moved sixth grade year, middle school. She goes, she decides she's going to go to an event at the school, an activity night. Even though we just moved a few weeks ago, she doesn't know anybody, but she's like, I can do this. I'm like, great, let's go. And I go, and we drive, and we pull up to the school, and she's watching all of these kids walk in with a friend. And she looks at me and she goes: “Mom, I don't think I can do this.” And I'm like: “It's okay if you can't, it's okay. We can just go back home. But if you want to try, I'm rooting for you. You got this.” So she looks and she goes: “Okay, I'm going to go for it.” Great. She goes in. I go. You know, I pick her up two hours later and I say, “how was it?” She goes, “well, I decided one of the opportunities at the activity night was to go swimming.” So she decides to go swimming. She’s like: “Mom, it was okay. I met somebody who was in fifth grade and we talked in the pool. And then I went to change, and I went into the hallway, and I'm in my swimsuit, and I couldn't find the locker room.” This is every middle school, guy or girl, worst nightmare. New in school. In the hallway. In your swimsuit. Can't find the locker room. And I was like: “What did you do?” And she's like: “Well, just went back in the pool and started watching where people would go.” And here's the thing, that's one of those things that could traumatize you, you know. Like this, they make movies about this. This is a one of those scenes in a movie. And she just decided to laugh because that's what you have to do. I mean, you're either going to laugh or cry at that story. And she decided to laugh. And now when she went back to another activity night this fall and she went with friends, she goes: “Mom, we have come a long way. ” I said: “Yes, we have.” You know, and so to approach those hard things that, ugh, just make your heart hurt with a sense of laughter,
PASTOR AARON
Not minimizing.
MICHELLE
No.
PASTOR AARON
But it is a coping mechanism, for sure. It relieves some of the tension. I think it gives you something you can do with it in an area that you can't control. So often you just can't control things. I can't control how my wife feels. I can't control what happens to my children to some extent. But not that I'm laughing when bad things happen, but we can cope through the scenarios with…with appropriate laughter.
MICHELLE
And I think for my daughter to look at it and go: “Well, this was terrible. It's probably one of the worst things I will need to face in my junior high years. That's done. Let's laugh about it. And maybe somebody else can find joy in my humility.” You know, like the approach.
PASTOR AARON
Well, what I've noticed with our kids (and they're not saints that by any means, neither am I), but they've learned through laughter. Hopefully they're not self-deprecating, but they've learned through laughter also that, you know, it's okay.
DANIEL
Right.
PASTOR AARON
It doesn't have to be perfect. It's taught them. It's given them, realistic expectations of things. And, but I'm looking for a word, but I can't think of it, but I think you get the idea. They don't take themselves too seriously, and serious situations, they don't put too much on them. You know, not always. Sometimes they have, you know, just like all those we have our meltdowns, but.
DANIEL
Right.
PASTOR AARON
I think laughter’s been a way to navigate hard things, especially in moves. Especially not having any friends for a while, you know.
DANIEL
And it's obvious that you two having laughter in your marriage have been great examples to your children. As we started the episode here, I said that you guys have a great, strong marriage. You're great parents because in just this specific avenue, you have been a great example to your children and probably has saved in that instance, your daughter, a world of anxiety. And a world of stress could completely change her outlook for that entire school year. And you guys did a great job going: “All right, you know what? There's nothing you can do in that situation. But, you know, just laugh.” And when we aren't able to laugh or aren't able to take ourselves a little bit, you know, like, not so serious, it causes us to become more anxious. It causes us to become more stressed out because we can't have that release. And we know that it's healthy. And as we come to a close here, you know, unfortunately, a lot of marriages lack that laughter, that ability to relieve that tension, to relieve that anxiety. If, we talked a little bit about this already, but if there is a couple who struggles to laugh, they're out there, they're listening. Like: “You know what, we don't laugh a lot. We, we're not sure what to do here.” What are some practical things that you could offer to them that could help change that in their marriage?
MICHELLE
I love that question because I do think marriages are supposed to be joy-filled. Like, and they're not always, right? Like some days are really hard and some seasons are downright terrible. And Aaron and I, for example, we don't have a lot of the same interests. You know, we don't have hobbies we do together or things like that. And so I think, though to find…
PASTOR AARON
Ironically though, excuse my interruption,
MICHELLE
Yeah.
PASTOR AARON
Ironically though, we both like to laugh and we're both hilarious! So…
MICHELLE
Yeah, we make ourselves laugh, so…
PASTOR AARON
We’re so funny!
MICHELLE
But I was thinking, just start to have fun together, you know, whatever that looks like for you and your spouse. To try and find moments that are fun, you know, to rekindle some of the fun. And I don't know what that would look like in all marriages, obviously. So I think that helps though, if you can start there, like: “What do we enjoy? And can we do that together?” You know.
DANIEL
Yeah.
PASTOR AARON
Yeah, in terms of practical things, boy I, I really don't know the answer to that. I think for us it was more organic. But I am more of a, like a verbal processor and just talking through this with you and even with Michelle here, you know, I do think there's, I know I already said it not to go back, but there's something to initiating. There's something to, not waiting, but initiating. And just like with forgiveness, when we practice forgiveness in our marriage, which is pretty much daily with me, but… Should I wait for her to say sorry, or should I just say, “I'm sorry”? Because I am. Do I wait for her to do the dishes or do I do them? Usually I wait for her, but you get the point. With laughter, how about initiated? I think that's…and obviously don't go do a comedy tour or do a slapstick or…I just: “Well, want to talk about it?” You know, just, just add a little levity. To a hard, to something that's already hard. Make it a little lighter.
DANIEL
Yeah. Last question as we close here, how do we glorify God by laughing in our marriage? How does it honor him as we laugh?
MICHELLE
Love, love this question.
PASTOR AARON
So good.
MICHELLE
So one of my favorite verses is in Proverbs, and it talks about how a joyful heart is good medicine. So as I think it through what my daughter went through in middle school last year, she gave her heart good medicine when she chose to laugh like it was good for her soul. And then you touched on this earlier too, that we are image bearers of Christ. And as part of that, I think we get God's greatest sense of humor. You know, like that part of how he created us. And so when we laugh together, I think that brings, it shows Christ and it brings, I'm going to say, brings part of heaven here on earth, you know, it's a glimpse of the joy that we will have in heaven. So when we…how do we glorify God when we laugh at our marriage? It shows a glimpse of who he is: of joy-filled, of forgiving, of loving, of humor, you know? So.
PASTOR AARON
And I think there's probably another element to it. What if you don't feel like laughing? You know. What if you don't? What if you're just having a hard time in your marriage or even just life, you know? I had a tough Saturday. I did not feel like laughing. And my first inclination to cupcake, whatever those things, that craziness was falling all over the car, it wasn't funny to me right away. But when my wife said #winning, I about lost it. She was really anything but winning. But I think everyone else in the car won in that comment. My point is this, I don't always feel like asking for forgiveness. I don't always feel like doing the dishes. I don't always feel… Lord, help me to find joy in this situation and to give joy in this situation. Help me to laugh in this situation. As your image bearer, as your son or daughter. I think that's how we can be Christ to each other.
DANIEL
Wow. Wow. Wow, you guys. Yeah, enough said. You guys did such a great job talking us through what it means to laugh, and hopefully our audience is blessed by that and looks for ways to laugh with each other and use it as a way to strengthen the relationship. So I appreciate your time, appreciate your willingness to come on the podcast. Thank you both.
PASTOR AARON
Thank you. We loved being here.
DANIEL
Thank you for listening to this week's BeLED Family Podcast episode. We appreciate you taking the time to tune in. Help us by sharing this podcast with your friends. Support the BeLED Podcast and BeLED Family by visiting us at our website: beledfamily.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram until the next episode. BeLED in all that you do.
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