Host Daniel visits with contributor Gary, as he shares his testimony. Hear Gary’s honesty and transparency, and hear how God’s grace brought Gary out of a place of brokenness.
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TRANSCRIPT
INTRO
This is the BeLED Family Podcast.
GARY
In a room with people I don't really know that well, and I just started breaking out into tears talking about how that person was affecting me.
DANIEL
Welcome to the BeLED Family Podcast. So glad that you are taking the time to listen to this week's podcast episode. We've got a great one for you! We have a testimony by my friend Gary. Thank you Gary for being with us. How are you doing today, Gary?
GARY
Daniel, today has been a really great day.
DANIEL
Has it? Why is that?
GARY
I mean, I just felt so accomplished and just got a lot of the things out of the way during my vacation week, so.
DANIEL
Oh, I like that, like that. Well, this is a great way to end your vacation, is having a conversation
GARY
Absolutely.
DANIEL
with us, right?
DANIEL
Yeah.
DANIEL
Okay.
GARY
Praising Jesus.
DANIEL
Praising Jesus. Gary is, he has… I've known Gary… How long have we known each other, Gary, for a few years at least, five, six?
GARY
It’s working on four.
DANIEL
Four? It feels like…
GARY
It’s working on four.
DANIEL
Okay. I remember the first time we met was at VBS at our church, wasn't it? Yeah.
GARY
Yeah. Back in August of 2020.
DANIEL
You just came up to us on the picnic table like, “Hey, I'm Gary.”
GARY
I actually didn't remember that until you said that to me one time. You told me that story, and then I was like, “Oh, yeah, I did, like.” You guys all just, like, looked at me and said, “Okay.”
DANIEL
And then Gary was, he was and he still is, one of the adult volunteers at our youth group. And he was when I was there as well, such a great guy. Kids look up to him. Great testimony. That's why he's on the podcast this week is to share about his testimony. And really, it's about the Lord's testimony through Gary's life. So, Gary, why don't you start us off just talking about what was the early life like for you?
GARY
I would say that my early life was a pretty typical, like, 90s white kid, I guess, say, right? Of where we just came from a nice, quiet town north of La Crosse. Everybody did church things, and we did community things. I remember, you know, just a lot of love and encouragement from my family specifically. And I think that's what sticks with me the most is how basically unconditional my family's love has been for me over my entire life.
DANIEL
Okay, so now as you grew up, though, things where it started to become maybe a struggle for you. That was probably that junior high, middle school era, right?
GARY
Yeah, I actually remember probably pretty specifically of just a time where I just noticed people weren't like specifically as friendly as they always used to be. It was a time where we combined two different elementary schools and so there was a bunch of new people learning to get to know each other and trying to take, you know, positions in society.
DANIEL
And how did that affect you?
GARY
I think it affected me in a pretty negative way. In the end, it's positive because of the things that happened. But
DANIEL
Sure.
GARY
at the time it was a negative way because I was used to just being friends with everybody and we all got along and there was no ordeals. But now all of a sudden there were, like, people that looked down on me for no reason. And I think that just really affected me.
DANIEL
Was that some of the friends that you had from the school you were at, or was that from more the other school that combined with it?
GARY
It was more of, like, the getting the combination going. So these new guys who don't know who you are, then they take precedence when other people are making friends with them, right?
DANIEL
Right. And that's something we kind of underestimate sometimes when those two worlds collide. Yeah. How that can be affected negatively. So keep talking about that negative experience.
GARY
Yeah. I mean and I guess I would be lying if I didn't say like my height always felt like that came into play. Pretty shorter guy on the… I'm a 5’6” adult right now. So back in middle school, I was pretty short. And yeah, it just…a lot of competition because I was a sports player. I was an athlete. I was a performer. So there was just always that mentality of competition off the bat. And so I think that just fueled into like the relationships that I ended up forming with my classmates.
DANIEL
And so for you, how did your mind start to shift during that time? Like what behaviors came out because of that?
GARY
Well, specific behaviors that I think of off the bat was, like the class clown kind of deal to where I tried to bring attention to myself more often. I was trying to be, I mean, I was trying to be competitive and be liked and be good at things. And, yeah, I guess that just came with like a cocky attitude. A prideful attitude.
DANIEL
Was that a reflection of what was happening inside? Were you cocky? Were you confident inside?
GARY
I would say, I mean, I think I have, yeah. I mean, the Lord has truly, honestly blessed me with many great talents and to like, say I'm not good at things would be untrue. So I didn't have a good understanding of how you're supposed to handle that, you know?
DANIEL
Okay. Yeah.
GARY
It was just how I was brought up and not having a true relationship with the Lord that I didn't understand. Like, you know, it's okay to, like, be good at things and how to be humble about things like that.
DANIEL
Right? Right. As you went through middle school and as you moved into high school, did that continue as you became older?
GARY
Yeah, I would say it was just, just you'd fit in. Right. And so at that point, I had established, like, who my friends were, I think I tried to find a lot of identity in them, too. Right? Because, well, you guys like them, so, like, you're going to like me too.
DANIEL
Did you find yourself compromising things about yourself just to fit in?
GARY
I honestly don't think I did. I was, I had always that attitude that I was the guy that I'm down to try anything and like, Gary can do anything. So like, I would just give it a shot and give it a go and like nothing scared me or intimidated me, you know, which didn't happen until like the end of middle school, there was just some really intense bullying that happened and.
DANIEL
That you did or you received?
GARY
That I received.
DANIEL
Okay.
GARY
From, like, the older class and then from my specific classmates and it was from friends. And so then there was like a definite line that was drawn there around like eighth grade, too. So.
DANIEL
Okay, so high school continues. It's not, I don't want to say overconfidence, but just confidence. But you use the word cockiness, in your ability. I mean, there's a difference there. Knowing that God, you recognize that God gave you a gift and you can be confident in that, but then sometimes you can take that too far.
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
And that becomes cockiness, right?
GARY
Yes.
DANIEL
So now let's…I know that after high school, things started becoming worse perhaps.
GARY
Yeah. I mean, I say it was like a general pattern. I went to college. I went to college in Milwaukee, so I took, you know, just the right the drinking started, the adulthood started. You're starting to do things. It's only on your own. And so I think just the drug use that I had throughout high school, it became more because I had more opportunities to do that and then new friends to make and new relationships to build, and new places to go. So yeah, it really.
DANIEL
What for you being taking drugs, what was that for you?
GARY
Which drugs?
DANIEL
No, now no, not which drugs. But like, just taking drugs in general. What was that for you?
GARY
It was always a break. I always had a feeling of like if you do something, well if you just do it like high or drunk, then it's just that much better, right? It's more. You're more feeling and more things are going on. So I think it would just happen to where like a lot of the times we would fill those spaces with drugs, a lot of the marijuana back then.
DANIEL
Sure.
GARY
Quite a bit of the drink drinking just easy, easily accessible things.
DANIEL
What was going on in your in your mind, in your heart at that time?
GARY
That's a really good question. I think I've just I mean, I think it was just a lot of selfish pleasure seeking. So it was just like, I just felt good. I felt mature when I did drugs because I thought I understood things better than the people that were around me. So I think it just gave me a self, a boost of confidence again. Right?
DANIEL
And as you continue this path of alcohol and drugs, where did that eventually lead you?
GARY
It led me down a dark path of heroin addiction. After I, like, didn't finish college. I had a good ten years, almost. I mean, good 8 to 10 years where I was in active opiate and heroin addiction.
DANIEL
Just would you say you were lost in it?
GARY
I thought that's where I was supposed to be. I think it just started turning into real quickly. I liked I liked the the high, the being. You know, it made me. When you start doing opiates, it makes you feel powerful. It makes you feel like you can take on anything. I used to literally say that it would make me feel like Superman and.
DANIEL
And that, I mean, that just hearing that sounds…the power of addiction. Just wanting that all the time.
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
Wanting to be in that mode, wanting to be in that mindset is something that would be powerfully drawing. It'd be hard to not be drawn to that or hard to not want that more and more. Was that the case for you?
GARY
Yeah, I think I mean, it was a point to where if it was available to have and I could get all of it, then I would just want it. So like, you know, I mean, it starts where you do it for a week or so and then you don't have any, and then, you know, eventually you just keep finding more people that are like you.
GARY
And then they have connections and you find more and more connections, and you can, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong, honestly. I didn't, you know.
DANIEL
You just felt like it was normal.
GARY
Yeah. I thought that everybody else was just bogus for, like, always saying things, right? Don't say things all the time. You don't even get it. Like, we're just, like, getting high. Like we're just having fun, you know?
DANIEL
Right.
GARY
And chill out. Just…
DANIEL
Yeah. Right?
GARY
Oh Yeah. I mean, and then that led me, you know, from a powder form heroin to then using needles even. I mean, and then that became normal for me too, right? Everybody else is weird. You guys are weird. Like, I'm just not even a big deal. I'm just real quick, and there's no big deal. But obviously you learn.
DANIEL
Okay, so as you're shooting up, as I don’t know if that's the right term.
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
Yeah. As you're shooting up and things like this and it's you said 8 good years, 8-10 years post-high school, right?
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
Okay, so after high school you're in your late 20s. I mean, where did this eventually lead you?
GARY
It led me to a place where I didn't have anything left. You know, I was a troublemaker all growing up, as I've clearly explained. But, I didn't get my first felony until I was 30 years old. I didn't even spend any real jail time until after I was 30 years old. I kept my habit under wraps for a long time.
DANIEL
You have a good relationship with your mom.
GARY
Yes.
DANIEL
Did she know what was going on? Did you have a good relationship with her back then?
GARY
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've always been pretty super close to both sides of my family. Smaller families, so.
DANIEL
And did she know what was going on in your life? Or did you kind of keep it under wraps and keep it.
GARY
They think they knew things. They didn't know exactly what was going on. They knew that there was drugs going on. I think they thought the more, like, socially acceptable ones, like marijuana and alcohol. I don't think they knew at certain point it got to be just heroin straight up.
DANIEL
So they knew what was going on. They didn't know to what the severity of it.
GARY
Right. And yeah, and there wasn't so there wasn't much discipline because I wasn't getting in trouble with the law. I didn't have any notifications. Right. They didn't have any notifications. Anything was going on.
DANIEL
But then you said you ended up in jail, right?
GARY
Yeah, absolutely.
DANIEL
So then what happens after that?
GARY
After jail, you would think, like you make fun of people that you would just be okay after that. And then you get out. And the first thing I wanted to do was get high again. Right? Because they just told me I couldn't do it for a whole bunch of time, for a whole bunch of days.
DANIEL
What was your attitude while you were in jail?
GARY
Probably pity on myself. I know, like the first, first time I went to jail when I was in Milwaukee, I straight up cried on the phone to my mom. So, it is not a cool place. Like, it doesn't make you feel good to be there
DANIEL
I’m sure not.
GARY
Right. And, Yeah.
DANIEL
So you get out of jail. You want this? Did you go right back into it?
GARY
Yeah. Oh, yeah, easily. I mean, there was jail time was about my only sober time for a very long time.
DANIEL
So at the moment you got out, I mean, in your mind, what did jail do for you? Nothing?
GARY
Nothing. They’re just a bunch of bogus people. Like putting me down. Trying to limit me again. I'm not even hurting anybody. I'm not even doing anything. Right.
DANIEL
So you continue in this path, you go to jail, you continue the path after jail. Gary, where did things? I mean, at what point did? What was the breaking point? What was the point were you went, “Okay, something…they're not bogus. I'm the one that's been bogus.” Was there a point? Was it time? Was it a series of things? What was it that…?
GARY
Well, that's I mean, there's times and things are taken away from you because of the choices that you make. You know, I barely ever had my license as an adult. I've, like, probably only had it, like, half of my adult life. You don't ever have money. You don't have your own place to stay at that.
GARY
You know, at the at the time, at the end of it, I was staying with my great aunt and, the final straw, I think, though, was just like when I started realizing I was, like, losing family. Like, not necessarily that they didn't want to ever talk to me, but they were…
DANIEL
Cut you off?
GARY
They were distancing themselves, for sure. Like my dad, one of the times I went to jail, he just stopped talking to me the whole time that I was in jail.
DANIEL
I bet that hurt.
GARY
That hurt a lot. Yeah, because he just…I mean, we had one conversation when I got there and he was not happy, and that was it for a month. Two and a half months.
DANIEL
So that was part of the breaking point.
GARY
Yep. Yep. And then just yeah, I didn't have anything. I mean, it was literally.
DANIEL
You at the end.
GARY
I would have had nothing. Nothing, nothing. I had nothing to bounce back off of. I did all the checking the cashes and getting payday loans and all those things. I did every single, credit card that I could open. I’d borrowed money from all my friends and from all my family members without paying them back many, many times. And it's just the end of the road to where you just feel like a dork.
DANIEL
Sorry to laugh, but dork is just a funny word.
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
So you're at this dork point. You're at the end. Nothing. Your family has not turned on you, but they've…they're distancing themselves from you. What happened? Where did your life? That's the point. Now, how did you respond to that? How did you start working yourself out of that?
GARY
As my understanding is now, is that there was a big heart posture change. I started to where I would attempt to do the same things that I was doing, but I stopped wanting to do them. I would like start heading places to go do criminal activity, and then I would turn around and go back home.
DANIEL
Could you describe why? Did you know why? You just
GARY
No, it would just be like, I get all ready to go and go. I mean, it was okay. Like, I mean, there's like, a withdrawal type of deal going on, too, right? Where I don't feel good all the time if I don't have what I need. And so that and yeah, just, I mean, it just being tired and sick of the same things going on. I always knew about that insanity thing, but never really did anything about it, right?
DANIEL
So things are, you’re, for unexplained reasons at the time, wanting to do things but finding yourself not doing things.
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
What happened? What, I mean…
GARY
I think it's a good thing to mention is I like I tried to reach out to the hospitals and to the things to try to, like, get myself clean and this was like some pretty bad timing because it was like 2020 and everything was shutting down and stuff. And there was just a lot of like, hopelessness. And I didn't.
DANIEL
So you're the one that's reaching out to hospitals? At this point, your family still distanced themselves from you?
GARY
Yeah. I mean, I'm just…I'm just you…
DANIEL
You're on an island.
GARY
I'm just trying to hide things as good as I can possibly hide’em. And like, you know, and I told them that I was doing what is Suboxone, which would be, like, the doctors medically prescribed thing to get you off of heroin. So then I would just try to hide it as much as possible, knowing that at the end of the day, like it didn't matter as long as I just got high.
DANIEL
Right. So you reach out to hospitals still trying to break that desire?
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
What happened? What finally broke that?
GARY
A big part of it was that we started getting all that government money, and I started having more money in my bank account than I ever had. And, it just led me down even darker and even deeper into the amounts that I was using, right? And then now I don't have a problem because I have plenty, so I don't have a problem anymore. I don't even have to worry about it. Like they didn't want to help me anyways. So I'll just be okay now because I got plenty and now I can sell it. I can, you know, started selling it even more, and yeah, just thinking I was okay.
GARY
And I think he just had to break me down, like one more time and just take everything away to where I remember it was one of the hottest days that we had had. And I was walking home from the super south side of La Crosse all the way to Onalaska dope sick. I even had like some guy trying to fight me on the way, and eventually I called my aunt and had her pick me up when I got closer to Onalaska, and I never did heroin again after that.
DANIEL
So you're at that point. No more heroin. You're broken. You're at the end. It sounds like God wasn't very real to you necessarily during your high school, post high school times. When did God step in, reveal himself to you in a new way?
GARY
Yeah, and I think maybe it's either I'm a slow learner or a particular way of learner because even then after getting clean off of heroin, I just, I started having conversations, like, just to, like, the God of my understanding. I just started talking and I started talking to my dead best friend. I started just talking to nature of what was going on. I had a lot of time, no job, so I had a lot of time.
GARY
My aunt was taking care of me, was super blessed by that, and it just gave me time to sit. I sat outside every day and just kind of like watched my little neighborhood, my little world, and I would just talk and listen to music and be outside, rain or shine. And I think just shortly after that, though, I was, talking to my aunt and just trying to let her know that I was on the right path.
GARY
And you know that if there's things to get involved with, you know, let me know, because even her, they were calling me less because they just didn't even want to deal with having me around. And so she invited me to church right off the bat.
DANIEL
What was that like when you came to church? When your aunt invited you, you came. What was that like for you?
GARY
My memory isn't always the best, but like, I think it was the first time, if not the second time, that I went there. We started singing one of the songs, and I broke out in tears, and I told her I got to go outside.
DANIEL
Do you remember what song it was?
GARY
No, there's no way my brain works like that. No, I just was listening to what the words were saying and what I, and I like to sing to. So I like to feel what I'm singing and. Yeah, and I just…I broke out into tears, like, already feeling weird. Like nobody, you know, nobody knows who you are and you don't know who anybody is in a new environment to people.
GARY
And I ran outside.
DANIEL
God was doing stuff. Yeah. God was doing stuff.
GARY
Absolutely.
DANIEL
Okay. So that was that first time. Continue to share with us. How did God continue to reveal himself to you?
GARY
I think the biggest one would be through, through the word. I mean, that's the easy answer, but that's where it is. I mean.
DANIEL
You kept coming to church, you kept…
GARY
I kept coming, yeah, I kept coming to church. And I kept being like, into the adult Bible study that we had going on. I know there was just Pastor Ron. There was a good moment when we were going through Ephesians where again, I, like, broke out into tears and it was the straight Holy Spirit of just understanding, of building each other together with love. And I literally and in a room with people I don't really know that well. And I just started breaking out into tears talking about how that verse was affecting me.
DANIEL
Wow.
GARY
So I mean, but then there were times when I would show up a little late or I wouldn't show up at all because I was still going out to the bars. I still was hanging out with my friends, and doing the legal drug that you can do that everybody accepts.
DANIEL
Sure, sure. So you're learning, but you're still…you kind of have a foot, not necessarily in both worlds, but you're kind of with your testimony in both worlds, your past and your present. How did God continue to speak to you through his word, through adult Bible study? But was there something more that kind of accelerated you even further down the road?
GARY
I would say the people around me though, like, they literally…I don't know when, if we're going to talk about, but just like forgiveness is…that had a big one is the way that my family began to treat me and the way that people I didn't even know and that I was building relationships with in the body of Christ, how they just opened up and accepted me in. It just like…
DANIEL
That spoke to you, that said something to you?
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
That was a way that God was revealing himself to you wasn’t it?
GARY
That things were real? Yeah. I mean, it took it took him a while until I actually even, you know, a year or so until I even asked him into my heart. And I think I was already, I think I had already talked to you about doing and helping out with the youth group, and I don't think I officially even had asked him into my heart. I was still trying to figure out what was going on and what I was reading.
DANIEL
And I remember when you came to youth group and started coming, you know, I didn't know where you stood exactly. I knew, I knew your heart, and I knew that you had a desire to know the Lord, to grow in the Lord. I didn't know at the time that you didn't know the Lord or received the Lord into your heart, right?
DANIEL
But it would have been, but there's that foundation, though still, that you're able to… You knew enough about the Lord that you knew, and he was speaking to you at the time through his word, through Bible study, through church, and now through youth group. And he's speaking to you. That was clear. That was evident to me. And I didn't know all of your background, but I knew that you, it was, had its flaws.
GARY
Yeah.
DANIEL
Right. But for me, as the youth director of the church, I was like, but this is the kind of guy I wanted around our youth because his life is being redirected to the Lord. It's being directed in the way that you spoke, the way your attitude, your heart was clearly evident to me that God had you, that God was doing something in your life. So you prayed to receive Jesus. God comes into your life, Gary. Talk about what happens next.
GARY
I mean, at that point, it's just again, that's I don't know if I'm a slow learner or just like he's, I think, I get the impression he is just trying to like really imprint my understanding of things. And it's just been a process of him taking things away and taking things out of my life. Right? I mean, I accepted him, I still listened into whatever music I wanted.
GARY
I had a really wonderful trip with my family to Colorado. Someone from church had shared a Christian song on Facebook, and I listened to it while I was sitting outside looking at the Colorado mountains, and it made me feel a certain way. And I don't think I've really picked anything besides Christian music to listen to since then. It's, and the drinking, He…I haven't had but a half glass of champagne over the last two years for a wedding toast. So, you know, you. Know, you want to be respectful.
DANIEL
Right? Right, right, right, right. God, just starting to cause you to grow.
GARY
Yeah, yeah. Amen. And I hope just continually. Because.
DANIEL
But I also know you, Gary, that sometimes you're more hard on yourself then you probably should be. Looking back at that now, can you see? No, not looking back. In those moments did you know God was causing you to grow? Did you recognize at that time? I know now you can see it, but back then, did you see God working in your life?
GARY
I would say, yeah. I mean, maybe even more so.
DANIEL
And you knew it.
GARY
Yeah. To where, I mean, I could see what he was doing. I didn't know who he was. And I still didn't even have, like a good open prayer communication with him. But like, I started paying attention to what I was reading and started to try to listen to what I was reading. And I don't know, I mean, he just blesses and blesses and blesses and blesses and my thankfulness of just everything is I mean, that's probably like the fuel of my faith is my thankfulness because I don't deserve anything.
DANIEL
Right? None of us do, none of us do.
GARY
Not even close.
DANIEL
Right? As we near the end, help us as listeners, as people invested in your story, Gary, help us understand for you today the things that God allowed you to go through, even back to junior high and middle school, thinking about that, the being bullied and the kids just kind of rejecting you for maybe your height or different issues, to high school being confident in your skills, but maybe a little cocky at times, to post high school just spiraling downward and downward and downward, which led to jail, but maybe even worse in jail, is that your family distanced themselves from you to where God shows up and goes, Gary, I've been here the whole time.
GARY
Yep.
DANIEL
I've been here with you the whole time, and I'm going to do something in you that you don't even know that I'm going to do. And your attitude, your spirit of thankfulness, your gratitude towards him is evidence to me, Gary, and the way that you live your life today in the way that you just like.
DANIEL
You know what? Today is a good day. It's a great day. We started off this interview by this testimony interview by you saying it's been a great day because you've had a week of vacation, just being able to enjoy what God has given to us. And that is your testimony that God is good, that God is faithful, and no matter what pathway a person takes, God is still good.
GARY
Absolutely right. Amen. Yes.
DANIEL
So share with us as we close here. Gary, what encouragement do you have for those people out there right now who are lost, who are just maybe their families cut them off, maybe they've cut their family off from them. They're maybe not doing drugs, maybe they are, but they're just they're looking to anyone but Jesus. What encouragement do you have for those people?
GARY
I mean, right, right. First of all, I’d tell them that Jesus loves them. I mean, there's just a lot of disbelief in the world. And I would tell them that Jesus is real. I would tell them, there's a lot of situations in my life where I promise you, I'm like 99%. I've been exactly where you are. The Lord has led me through many things, and you're not experiencing something that nobody has experienced. And it's okay to need help. It's okay to look for answers and be angry, but in the end of it, there's only one true thing that matters in this world, and that's Jesus Christ. We have no future or hope without him.
DANIEL
Yeah, Gary, I want to thank you for for sharing with our listeners, with us the BeLED Family about what God has done in your life. What a testimony. And we rejoice with you, right? It's brothers and sisters. We rejoice with you, with what God has done. I'd love to have you come back sometime and talk more about, you know, just how you see God working today and how you see him using you in different ways. If you’d be willing sometime in the future on a future podcast.
GARY
Absolutely, Daniel. I think that'd be. This is just a cathartic type of thing to be able to share my story and to be able to help, hopefully, individuals that are out there listening.
DANIEL
Right. So yeah. So look, we'll have Gary on sometime in the future to continue this conversation. Not maybe not continue, but just another different type of conversation where he can share a lot of what God has been teaching them to this day. A lot of how he sees God using him in ways because I believe that your life, Gary, has. There's your great example to my boys, and to a lot of the youth group. But not only the youth group, but a lot of adults in our congregation.
DANIEL
So, Gary, thanks for being on the BeLED Family Podcast.
GARY
Thank you, Daniel.
DANIEL
Thank you for listening to this week's BeLED Family Podcast episode. We appreciate you taking the time to tune in. Help us by sharing this podcast with your friends. Support the BeLED Family Podcast and BeLED Family by visiting us at our website, beledfamily.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram. As a reminder, the BeLED Family Podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to substitute for professional advice. Until the next episode, BeLED in all that you do.
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